Interview with Mitch Horowitz – Writer, Historian, Metaphysicist || EP 228

Mitch Horowitz is a fantastic writer with a journalist background who has expanded our understanding of new thought authors, Neville Goddard and metaphysics. His books are remarkable and have really helped my to navigate all of this material into a workable way to create reality.

I was very honored to get a chance to talk with him. I learned a lot from this and you will too

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Welcome to the reality revolution. This is a huge day for the podcast. We get Mitch Horowitz, one of the best writers of all time about self elk and metaphysical writing. And so I’ve so desperately wanted to talk to him and meet him and um, it’s like meeting my hero. I’m super nervous right now because, uh, I get a chance to talk to one of my heroes that has written so many books that I’ve read. The, the really cool thing about Mitch is when I read his writing, I hear his voice because he’s such an incredible narrator and narrating so many incredible audio books. He’s explored all the things that I’ve been super fascinated by and I’ve learned so much from him. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on, Mitch. Thank you, man. Thank you for that beautiful introduction. I’m very touched and very glad to be here. Thank you. So the really incredible thing that you have added to this is that you come from a journalistic background. When you read the miracle club, one of my favorite books of yours, you talk a little bit about your past. You, you were working on politics, even crime writing your, so you bring this, this journalistic idea to your writing. So a lot of a lot of self help literature and metaphysical literature doesn’t have that, that desire to go back and look at the facts and the history. We are also historian. Uh, so you’ve added a lot to the discussion of new thought authors and a lot of this stuff. So I really appreciate that. I just wanted to get your discussions of how you’ve gone about researching the stuff that you have. Sure. Self-help methods, motivational methods, esoteric philosophies, self-development philosophies. We’re always part of my life and I suppose starting in the early two thousands, they became more and more a part of my life occupying my work as a writer, as a publisher. But coming from a more diffuse background I suppose was helpful to me not only in honing my writing skills, but I hope in being well rounded. I hope in being able to bring matters of social relevancy into the field of self-help and the esoteric and alternative spirituality. My wish is not only to be relevant to my readers and listeners, but to also be starkly honest with them. I feel that there are so many people who make a living selling different alternative spiritual philosophies, different therapeutic and motivational philosophies, and they develop a kind of stump speech approach where you ask a question and you’ll always get one of nine answers and you’ll never hear from them about their, their own internal process, including their failures, including their failures. And anybody who’s not willing to talk to you earnestly as specifically about their failures is not being Frank, is not being real. I’ve had the experience myself of working with or interviewing various new age figures, including some very big names, very recognizable names, and I’ve seen how the sausages are made, you know, and I’ve seen sometimes some very well known people will fall apart under the slightest pressure and yet they never make that admission in their work. And I do believe in their ideas or I wouldn’t be working with them, collaborating with them, but at the same time, I don’t believe in masking our failures or in presenting a front to the reader or to the listener that’s inauthentic in terms of the experiences of my daily life. And I think that we need a revolution in frankness, in realness, within the self-help philosophies. You know, and I, I, I don’t, I don’t dig when different writers kind of either mythologize their past or conceal their presence so that the listener is left to feel like, wow, that person so has it together. How can I ever live up to that? How can I ever aspire to that? You know, their lives are filled with holes sometimes that are greater than those of their listeners, which doesn’t mean that they’re, there isn’t so much richness and wealth of ideas and gravity of ideas within the alternative spiritual culture, but I think we need a great dose of, of disclosure, of transparency, of realness. So coming from a different background maybe helped me to end with a dedication to those values as well. Well, I think that especially chief definite aim and miracle club kind of outlined the struggles I was going through. And your journey through the struggles to your success, where you’re talking about, cause you know, of course I’m following all of these techniques and it’s not working. You know, it’s, maybe it’s a little bit, but you’re saying, Hey, you need to pick one thing. Make that your chief definite and what does that, as you say in the miracle and what’s that thing your soul wants and pleads for what’s connecting to your heart and I owe you for my, a lot of the success I’ve had is by saying, okay, a lot of that stuff’s not important. I need to really focus on that one chief definite aim. And because of that, you really make a really great argument in those books for yeah, you might be able to go manifest a cup of coffee, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about connecting to your heart and finding your soul’s purpose and your chief aim. That’s when the magic happens. I really believe that’s true and I would, I’ve lived by that in my own life. I came to realize some years ago that my chief aim was that I wanted to document metaphysical practice in history and inexperience and I wanted to do that at at ever higher and higher levels ever greater levels of public exposure. And it opened up everything for me because it helps me to realize what it was that my psyche was unified around, whether I was ignoring it or not. It’s also, it’s difficult and it’s challenging for people to choose a really passionately felt absolutely singular chief aim because naturally we all feel that life makes multiple demands on us. We’re parents, we’re workers, we’re caregivers, we’re artists, we’re we’re soldiers, we’re students. We have all kinds of things that, that we’re asked to do that we’re called upon to do. I have two sons. I have all kinds of financial obligations, obligations to various people in my life. And you know, one could say, how is it possible to really select one aim and I would would offer that life presents us with a really tough party, which is that you’re very likely to get something close to what you want if you can be absolutely singular about it. And a well-selected aim can cover a lot of different bases, a lot of different bases. It may not cover everything, you know, truth be told, it may not cover everything. There may be people in our lives who want our more of our attention, who do not receive it because there is a singular focus and aim from which we’re operating. But those same people may receive other things, needful things necessary things, positive things without one aim does have to stand paramount. And it’s a tough bargain. It’s a tough bargain. Bargain. Like life is a multi spoked wheel and it is. Yeah. And also obviously there are things we cannot neglect like health if, if, if we neglect our health. A philosopher once said to me, if you don’t give something its proper attention now it will take all of your attention later. But if you don’t give a relationship, proper attention, or if you don’t give your health proper attention, those things might become crises that demand all your attention later. So one has to live with that too. One has to live with that too. And there’s no absolute perfect recipe going to erase every paradox. We’re raised, every seeming contradiction we have to kind of keep on looking out for those that said, one single definite aim for which we feel obsessive passion, which we experience as needful as we do. Breath itself is the best guarantee of getting that which where we want to go. And, and I, I’m living proof. It’s absolutely true. And, and it’s a wonderful teaching. One of the things that I really relate to you and the woman in the miracle club that comments to you after, I think his speech, he says, how do you sleep? You have this, this driving for information all the time. You’re, I’m very much like that too. You’re constantly, um, I can see it in your writing, this hunger for knowledge. Even if you think you know everything, there’s gotta be more out there. You’re the way that you relate to new thought authors, everything. And that’s one of the things I love about your writing. It just seeps through is this love this hunger for more information. There’s gotta be something else out there. I appreciate that. That was funny. The story that you’re referencing. I was speaking at this very high tone retirement home in upstate New York and they had a speaking program and Lily came up to me at the end and she was speaking like an East European accent and she said to me, how do you sleep at night? And I said, what? I thought, you know, I was being accused of being some kind of a monster. How do you sleep? Right, right. The first thought I could see that. Right, right. Your mind is always going and then I realize what you’re referencing. And it is true. My mind is always going. Um, and that would be true whether I had a chief aim or not. I’m just constructed that way as some of us are, am I do sleep at night, but I sleep at night because I, I drive myself to exhausted. You know, I use my mind and I use my body as much as I can to the max during the day, driven by my aim. And so when I sleep, I really sleep. Although probably my mind is always buzzing and always processing. That’s true. We all know that our, our intellect is never dormant, never dormant. We may be in a dream state, but it’s very relevant what’s going on. But it’s a pleasure for me, you know, to have my mind running all the time because it’s focused on my chief aim because it’s focused on questions of, of metaphysics historically, practically. And these are my absolute passion. So in that sense, all this excess energy has a positive place to go. Well, you and I share a deep love for Neville Goddard. I’m still a student. And one of the things that you’ve done is you’ve read a lot of his books. I recommend all of the books that Mitch reads, uh, of Nevilles. They’re fantastic. The law and the promise, uh, infinite possibility is a great compilation of his lectures. Before I get into it, I just want to, as somebody read his lectures, there’s you kind of, there’s a state that you reach when you read his lectures of understanding. I recommend, if you want to understand Neville, read his lectures out loud. There is something that, uh, there’s another level of understanding. Do you, Neville is one of the most extraordinary figures to have emerged from the modern mystical scene, the modern metaphysical Dean. And I think, I think Neville is going to emerge and is emerging right now in our own generation as the most widely read, widely quoted, influential fingered amount of the new thought or mind metaphysics movement. And it’s funny because when I first started writing about Navajo back in 2005, very few people had heard of him. I had only recently learned to him. I had learned if it may be 18 months earlier and I fell into him completely as people often do. Because when you read Neville as, as you’re alluding, you feel absolutely transported, absolute transported to him with your reading, his books, reading his lectures, reading his lectures out loud. There’s such symmetry and beauty and simplicity and yet radical qualities to his ideas that you feel enlisted into this whole other possibility and perspective on life. And for your listeners who may not know novel, although probably most do his one teaching is your imagination, has God and that everything you experience, including these words right now, including our exchange right now is rooted in you. We are simply fragments of you, the listener, you, the listener, your intellectual development, your life within has produced us, you know, effectively and, and never met this in the most literal sense. And I, I think that as time passes his teachings and his ideas are also coming to the scene, in my view as the most effective mystical analog to quantum theory to quantum physics. I think whole new generation of folks, including students of, uh, physics, including students of quantum mechanics who are going to start to see novel as an adjunct to their work in the same way that many people within science and within spirituality in general view Alan Watts, for example, the Zen scholar, not just as some guy who was into Zen, but as a true philosopher for our times and radio philosopher Neville is coming to be seen that way. It’s incredible when you enter his work. It’s an experience like almost no other, I’ve had this experience maybe reading only Ralph Waldo Emerson. Then very, very few other writers. You feel completely transported. You feel like someone is holding LTU a radically different perspective online. That’s just right there for the asking right there for the asking and not complicated, uncomplicated, radical, simple, persuasive, symmetrical. He was beyond the ordinary. He really was. He really was. So yeah, that, that’s the thing that came, I came to it from a quantum physics and then perspective a little bit at the beginning. Um, and I could see that he’s really talking about exploring parallel realities as more we understand about the possibilities around it, even in out of this world. He kind of makes comments about it a little bit. Uh, but I it, that’s what I agree. It’s completely consistent with what we’re understanding now about quantum physics. So absolutely really is out of this world, maybe his greatest work in terms of correlate into quantum theory and, and he was writing all this stuff way before the popularization of these ideas. Um, I think he instinctively and in an illuminated way, understood some of the things that we’re now coming to theorize about within the quantum view. And, and he did it. He was going back to the late 1940s at a time where it was not available in a popular [inaudible]. Right. So I want to ask, since you are a historian, and I talked a little bit about Kate with Kate jaggedy, um, of course you become fascinated as soon as you read a novel, you want to know everything about them and, and, and there is not a lot about him. You’ve gone about trying to research the history about where you grew up and some of the background, so I’d love to know a little bit more about that. What you found about behind the scenes of the, I mean when you read Israel Regardie’s forward, you get a little idea that he was an actor and you kind of get a little bit idea of his personality behind the scenes, but there’s really not a lot. So that’s one thing I wanted to talk to you about. Were you able to find anything more behind the scenes historically about nibble in your work? Yeah, I write historically about Neville and my books. One simple idea in the miracle club, I found that some of the boldest claims Neville made about himself do stand up to forensics. For example, one of the things I’ve written about is that Neville ho was drafted into the army during the second world war and he was a little bit older. He was in his late thirties but men could be drafted up until pretty advanced ages during the war. It wasn’t altogether unusual. And he said he really wanted to get out of the army, didn’t want to be there, and that he laid down on his army cot basic training and imagined himself back home in New York city and did this for Mmm, several weeks. And then out of the blue received an honorable discharge that had been denied to him at some point earlier. And this sounded Graham realistic to me that the U S army at the height of the war effort were just honorably district enabled body male in basic training. And I looked, I was able to locate, uh, Neville surviving military records. Some had been lost in a fire at a records facility one year after devil’s death of all things. But the remaining records indicated that he was honorably discharged and he had been discharged, um, according to the, uh, the record sheet to resume work in a vital civilian occupation. And I spoke to a army spokesman said, you know, this man was a metaphysical lecturer. What was the, the vital civilian occupation that he was returning to? And he could offer me no other details, but all the forensics matched up exactly as devil described it in the military for about four months. He was discharged honorably while still in basic training, and I can’t say what happened, but I had case after case after case of researching elbows life where I found that his claims did stand up in terms of the, the names, the dates, logistics, the forensics of what went on, and he lived for much of his life here in New York city, which is home to me. He died in Los Angeles where he also spent a great deal of time. He was born to a large British family in bark, but the Island of Barbados. He had a couple of marriages. One was a very, very early marriage that seemed to be a, a mistake, but another was a longer lasting marriage later in life. And one of the most remarkable things about Neville and one of the reasons why relatively little in fact, very little biographical information is available, is that he never really pursued fame or public notice, which is strange in itself because he started out his career as a dancer, an actor. It’s a very handsome man. He looked like a matinee Hi-Lo. He looked and sounded like Cary grant spoke with this beautiful mid Atlantic accent. Really truly had the looks and the appearance of a matinee idol and yet submit it to very few photographs. You know, today, every 15 seconds people are posting photos of themselves on Instagram and social media, just hungering for legs and public adulation and well obviously those things didn’t exist in devil’s day. He sat for maybe three professional photographs that I personally know of when I first started researching and there was just one photo of Nashville online that would get used over and over again. And I have others, which I put posted, but very, very few. And someone who looked and sounded and presented himself as Neville did really he, he had the charisma and the appearance of a, of a movie star. Okay. You would think would have been out there, more new in the world. But his life was one of real self-sufficiency. He didn’t have a business apparatus at his back. He, he really, he worked like a kind of artisan, he worked like a kind of Troubadour, you know, traveling from place to place, getting these dogs, selling some books and pamphlets, some of which were self published, some of which were published by very small metaphysical presses. He dealt with his correspondence. He was, he was, I wouldn’t say he was a private man. I wouldn’t say it was a public man. He was just a very self sufficient man. And the stories that he told have by my reckoning. Uh, the true, one thing I was unable to find, and I don’t want to loose of aspect of Noble’s persona, is that he described being tutored by a, a man of a black Jewish descent named up doula. You’re here in New York city and there are no records in the press or in any other evident public places of Abdula. People have questioned, was this a real guy? Was this mythology? Was this a composite? And I’m going to have the answers to that. You know, I’ve visited buildings where Abdula was said to live. I’ve been in the lobby. Um, it may be literal truth. It may be a composite. Um, I really don’t know. I really don’t know. If he wasn’t real, that’s even cooler. I think it would just be the Kerwin’s thing. If it turns out Abdula wasn’t real. I don’t know. There’s part of me that says, I think that’s fantastic. If he wasn’t, I don’t know. It doesn’t bother me that much. So, well, I think that, you know, I identify a figure who might’ve been a doula, but the timeline doesn’t fully match up. So I’m correct about that very often. I have found that when a figure is real in a cult history, however secure they may be, they show up somewhere. So is Joseph Murphy, somebody said that he had, there’s in writings and Joseph Murphy’s. Was there a reference to Abdulah there is that yes. I’ve read about that in one simple idea. Um, towards the end of Murphy’s life, uh, he died in 1981 he gave a series of interviews to a French writer from Quebec and these interviews published only in French by a Quebecois press. And this book, which I in the miracle club and a couple of other places, Murphy too, who was contemporaneous with Neville and they did know one another, makes reference to being tutored himself by Abdula, which is the only other corroborating reference doula that exist. So I thought that was really cool. And these interviews have only been published in French translation. Uh, one simple idea, uh, and it’s so intriguing and it’s so fascinating here. Years after Neville’s death is the only corroborating instance of Joseph Murphy saying, yes, I studied under Abdula as well. Quite remarkable. It’s quite interesting. You mentioned Israel regardless. Portrait of Neville wrote in 1946 for a book called the romance of metaphysics and regard. He was fascinated with Neville and love. Neville MRD is the first one who made reference to Abdula as a rabbi. Neville spoke about doula as a man, a black man of Jewish descent, a man of Ethiopian descent. And it was regarding the first referred to Neville as an eccentric Ethiopian rabbi. In his words, this idea that Neville was, that Abdula was a rabbi, began to develop Neville, to my knowledge, never made that reference himself. And so this is how myth and legend develops because it’s not true. Doesn’t mean it’s not true. There’s this kind of free for all quality work. Israel Regardie add something. Joseph Murphy update. Again, it’s difficult to unravel. Some things just have to remain a mystery. Well, the interesting clue that that was worth, I was wondering if you had gone down the rabbit hole was when Israel’s talking about Neville exploring Rossa Crucian. He was erosive Crucian in his, what Neville calls his state of John when he was not drinking and not he during that period. He’s heavily, and I dunno heavily, but ease into the Rossa Crucian which is real regard. He has knowledge of writing about the golden Dawn. I’m wondering if, do you think that Neville might’ve been with like the golden Dawn or some secret societies or that he didn’t? We didn’t know about. I mean, we know he’s with Rosicrucians at least, and I’ve, I’ve read about and explored that a little bit, so I kind of have a tenuous idea of what he was exploring more mostly meditative techniques and nothing really radical or you know, so, but yeah, well he was bumping around a lot of different occult groups for a while and experimenting with a lot of different ideas and philosophies. I know he was influenced by the French mine theorists, Emil QA because, and I’m a big admirer of Kuwait because Neville uses phrasiology in some of his books, including freedom for all this that echoes Kobe. So definitely was influenced by QA, but he was so original in his, in his way of thought. He was so unprecedented. I haven’t, uh, haven’t found any other teachings that really bear the thumbprint of Neville’s idea. He, he wrote that he writes a little bit about his own spiritual progress and development. Some things he experiences in transcendent States and in, in raking dreams. States are meditative States, but primarily he talks about his realization that scripture is an illumined book written in symbolism. And that if you can read scripture through fresh eyes, if you can cleanse the doors of perception, so to speak, and read scripture as it’s really intended. That’s where his philosophy, his ideas, his teachings about the godlike nature of your imagination are all from, so he really relied directly upon old and new Testament. I can’t think of another writer that did that. Is there another writer that explored the Bible in that way? The only other writer I can think of is William Blake. We can play, which he refers to you a lot. Yeah. Blake was certainly that way. Blake was in Illumina dental act. It’s Lawrence that way. Emerson was that way. Although Emerson drew more broadly upon different spiritual philosophies, quotes more broadly from different spiritual philosophies. But I would say Blake is the only other such finger. So it’s impossible to interview mature wits in an hour. But I’m going to try to see, we got 30 minutes. We talked about some Neville Goddard, we, um, so, and thank you for that. There’s so many other things. One thing I recommend everybody subscribed to Mitch is medium account. He’s writing some fantastic articles that are coming out on a regular basis. You have a new book, secrets of self-mastery that just came out that I can’t wait to read. So, uh, so taking the ideas that we talked about here and going on with it a little bit. Um, you write about the cult, you write about, uh, so many other things and I’m sure that you’re still exploring new stuff right now. Um, so, so, and one of the really fascinating thing about your writing is talking about a cult America about behind the scenes we’ve been exploring the occult even going all the way back to Ronald Reagan. Uh, one of the, I wanted to just ask a first before we go. I, I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of Alistair Crowley at one point. You know, his hagiography is completely fascinating. It may be not true, but it’s so, and you’ve kind of briefly mentioned, of course, I know you’ve read some of his stuff. So what is your impression of Allister Crowley? Well, I have very conflicted feelings about, about him as many do. I think he was brilliant. Artists are brilliant seeker brilliant. The cultist great intellect. A lot of people around him also got hurt. There was a loose, there was a cruelty. I think in some ways a lack of honor in terms of there’s a dark side. Yeah, the reciprocity that he showed or fell to show to other people at the same time. I do think that some of the things that he produced, like the book of the law, just to have the markings of material that comes from an absolute transcendent source, a truly, truly transcendent source. I think he was a [inaudible], truly, truly great artists and a cultist aye and not particularly warm to really detailed rituals, really killed complex techniques and operations. I tend more to go for things that are very, very simple, simple, very, very basic cut right to the source. Why I’m dedicated to Neville, I have a piece on medium called anarchic magic and it’s my manifesto of what I practice is a, is a very recent piece. It’s at the top of my feet on medium and this piece on a narcotic magic is about the importance of spontaneity, about the importance of, for me at least simplicity of going to things that cut right to the source. I’m interested above all else in practicality, in results in the re the, the, the, the queerest, the user, the participant feeling a difference in his life and his or her experience in his or her conduct getting somewhere. That to me is the single most important measure of any magical or ethical spiritual philosophy. I am not down with very detailed rituals, so I deeply respect Croley and Regardie and the golden Dawn and other ceremonial magical traditions, but I tend to be much more advocating of very self directed ideas, very simple ideas, very powerful unifying ideas. If you feel that you’re doing something, whether it’s a magical exercise, a mental exercise, a ceremonial exercise, an active prayer that is so community buying that unifies your psyche and by setting I mean your emotions, your physicality, your intellect, and you feel a kind of wholeness of efforts and a complete total dedication and unification of self wrapped up in whatever it is you’re doing and pursuing, whether it’s saying a prayer or doing a ceremony, embarking on a visualization and information, whatever it is I am in came. That’s effectiveness. That’s effective. Anytime that unification of psyche, a physicality of intellect, of emotion has been present in me when I have been exploring a way of concretizing my will out, good sharing my will. That’s been the circumstance of success. And that’s kind of what a narcotic magic is about because there’s not a great deal of planning that goes on in it. There’s a great deal of self education, but when the moment comes, you act on it the way an artist might act on it and [inaudible] the same as chaos, magic or similar. I see it as different from chaos magic in so far as I suppose I do more to emphasize spontaneity being of the moment. Sigil magic has not necessarily, central magic has not worked for me. I have experimented with central magic. I respect sigil magic. I will continue to experiment with central magic. It’s not worked for me. And perhaps I’m the delectable, uh, of pointing out in my article that there are of course, many different kinds of sigil magic. And I focused in my article on the most, um, traditionally practiced one. And there are many different kinds. So in that sense, I would have to say that, uh, narcotic magic and Cass magic are cousins. They are cousins, they’re related. Plays a definite emphasis on DVD, on theism, on spontaneity, on just completely acting with a total sense of abandon in terms of whatever you want to pursue. And hence being ready to act with that sense of abandoned almost anywhere, anytime. That’s part of our, I think, collective psyche that when magic comes up, there’s that fear that that little part of that we were taught from kids, Hey, there’s demons and, and so it’s interesting. Uh, it’s just a natural, I think response when people collectively start talking about magic. That’s why there’s a separation in the literature. There’s people that talk about self-help and metaphysics and then magic is separate. And, and when you read some of the magic stuff, there’s great writing, uh, that people are missing out on because they’re, it’s been separated and that’s what’s great. You’re, you’re still, you’re willing fearlessly to explore any of this stuff. Oh, without question. You know, you mentioned demons for example, you know, demon has just a late ancient term that took on negative connotations as the early church was solidifying its authority within the Western parts of the Eastern world and vanquishing the ancient religions. So the idea of a Damon or a spirit or a, a, um, a genie, I or you know, something, you know, some, some, some invisible force personified energy that could assist the individual was identified as being malevolent. Whereas the practitioners of such methods didn’t have that association at all. I mean, the, in, uh, in the Hellenic world for example, uh, the Greek and Roman traditions would speak of Jeannie, I of of these beings that could help the individual. And later these things were Damon and later these things were classified as what we call demons and in, in, in, in English, and in the kind of, you know, Anglican phonetics and reclassified as being malevolent. I don’t know, there malevolent at all. And I wish for the individual, his or her highest sense of experiment. Let’s look, let’s find out. Hold on. Satan is absolutely fantastic. It’s somewhat, I guess, controversial, but I loved it and I recommend anybody read it. And another example of your fearlessness, a lot of writers would be like, you know, I’d love to write about this but maybe I’ll just avoid that topic cause it’s going to be so controversial. Right? Yeah. And I’ve often thought about that because you know, my writing’s on Satanism and, and, and your, your listeners should understand that I have my own very independent, but I also think historically valid interpretation of what that is and it does not coalesce with the traditional mainstream reading of, of that term and that idea. And if anybody’s interested, there are pieces galore about that on, on medium and they can explore my perspective and see if it resonates with them. I think it has historical validity. I have to go where my search leads me. I have to go, you know, I realize that that terminology is really off the rails in terms of our culture and I’m not insensitive to that. Um, I’m not oblivious to that and I’m not trying to support controversy. I have zero interest in cheek controversy and provocation for its own sake. Absolute zero interest in that. And it’s painful to be misunderstood. You know, I do not like being misunderstood. Nobody likes being misunderstood. I’ve been kicked out of organizations because of my, um, research into, uh, Satanism because of my writings about Satanism because of my lectures about Satanism is painful, you know, lost friendships. I’ve, I’ve lost, um, income, I’ve lost opportunities and so being misunderstood is painful. It’s not fun. I don’t look to court controversy, but at the same time I have to go where my search goes. My writing is nothing but my exploration as a seeker of what I’m about, what I’m exploring, I don’t see myself at all as a teacher, as a guru, as some sort of a therapist, as a ministerial figure. I am a seeker, I am a seeker and I’m just sharing where I am on the road with other people. And if it resonates with them, that’s great. That’s also the good. And so when I go somewhere, there’s no difference. There’s no demarcation between my search and my writing and my speaking and my narration and my screenwork. Everything I do is one thing is one thing. So I don’t go there on debt. If I don’t go there, I banned and, um, the, the nature of my own search and my own work, I’m being a fake. I’m being offended. So, and this is what I appreciate. You’re willing to write about anything clearly and I love that you’re not just custom tailoring an article, so a lot of people will read it and that that’s what’s so I love so much it comes out in the that, so thank you for that. So the thing that we share is this love for new thought authors also. And I want to, we’ve got a few minutes, we can go over some of the other new thought authors. Um, this new thought movement that came about going back to Wallace Wattles and William Walker Atkinson, is there any authors that you have found that, uh, you know, other than the ones in Nebula that maybe new, that were in that movement that you may have recently discovered that we have not maybe heard about? Well, that’s a great question. I’m always looking for voices that I really find penetrating within the new thought world. Within that tradition. The voices I’ve found who are most powerful are in addition to Neville, you mentioned while Estee waddles, I think his book, the science of getting rich has so many folds and layers. It’s really a masterpiece. I think that’s truly one of the greatest works that’s ever come out of the new thought tradition. Um, Napoleon Hill, you know, very familiar name, and yet I think within Napoleon Hill’s work, lob success thinking, grow rich, master key to riches. There are just tremendous, tremendous insights. And I, I have a very, very deep and long abiding respect for Napoleon Hill’s work. Let’s talk about, keep going. No, no. You know, I mean, there’s other names I could mention. None of whom would be particularly surprising. Ernest Holmes does it. Murphy, you know, I like Earl Nightingale, the radio broadcasters who produced the lecture of the strangest secret. I like Earl because I think that he just brought a such a reassuring American persona to metaphysical ideas that would be difficult for some people to swallow if it wasn’t coming from someone like Earl who presented such a wonderful solidity in his persona, his voice in his public presence. And I really admire that because I do think presentation is very important. I admire Florence Scovel Shinn I admire Elizabeth town. I do think I admire Roy Gerber Jarett who went by the initials R H J he wrote that little pamphlet if we’re, I do think that with the death of Joseph Murphy in 1981 new thought did fail from within its own ranks to produce compelling figures and I think Ian is pretty poor today. There are some fingers who I really liked it in Meyer today. Kate should get a, is one of them. Our Bishop is one of them, a couple of others, but by and large, I think the new thought movement has produced a lot of childish material problem because people are just so safe. They’re so concerned with being safe and they’re not refilling enough of self and they don’t take enough chances and they don’t grow. And we’ve settled into a kind of immature language of pep rally atmosphere. And you know, this movement as an intellectual movement will not survive if we don’t produce voices that are mature, that are compelling. And I think that’s been a huge deficit in new thought over the past two generations. There’s no doubt. There’s definitely a deficit from then. This explosion of incredible literature. Um, William Walker Atkinson’s is interesting with all the pseudonyms and Yogi rah Mataranka and I’ve been exploring, there’s way more than I had thought and he was a terrific writer and he was bringing a lot of Eastern mysticism also. Um, but the Napoleon Hill, you mentioned that in it, I have this huge love for Napoleon Hill. Law of success as you say, is my favorite book of his people. Talk about thinking growers with the law of success is a masterpiece, I guess. Impression, that was his baby that he had worked on all the time. It wasn’t thinking grow rich that came afterwards. You can tell that his baby was law of success, that he had worked on this for decades. The interesting thing, the historical thing about Napoleon Hill that I find interesting, he wasn’t this super successful guy. He was a struggler like he’s talks about he was a struggler and that’s why I, I respond to him cause I was a struggler. I can I get where he’s coming from? He’s overcoming the struggle. Yes. And that is why it’s so powerful. Yes. And I think you put your finger on it with regard to law of success. That is his masterwork. Virtually all of Hill’s thought is in law of success and he spent the remainder of his career repackaging it. Reformatting it, you are rich is one of the greatest book titles of all time. Certainly within the self-help field. Maybe the greatest book title within the self-help field. And that is so memorable, is so compelling. And yet there’s nothing in think and grow rich or relatively little, but you won’t also find in law of success. I think that within thinking grow rich, he definitely developed the idea of sex transmutation, which I appreciate. And which I’m a huge admirer of those way of thought in that area. He definitely, Mmm. He developed the idea of cosmic habit force a few years later in his book, the master key to riches. So those were notable post lob success insights and I applaud that and that, those, those ideas have been very meaningful for me. But by and large, he did spend the rest of his life. Explicated what he laid down in law says in 1928 it is a master masterwork I find new things in it all the time. Yeah. And so it’s interesting, uh, you know, most people will talk about Napoleon Hill not thinking grow rich, but law of success. It just special special book. But when I was reading the history, he, I think, um, got in trouble financially at some point. And Napoleon, he had some things happen. Um, you know, along the way, which when you read him, you can feel that genuine desire to overcome. Yes. It’s not overcome these things. He, you know, that’s why it, it resonates. Yes, I did that. And you’re absolutely right. I mean he went through business failures, business partners, difficult divorces, and he was in a very, very tight spot probably in the early 1960s and there was a figure and insurance executive then Clemon stone who came to his rescue, he founded the Napoleon Hill foundation and he sort of lifted Hill up and created a modern business apparatus around him. But he’ll had ups and downs in his life with bus cycles. And I think it’s important to, for us all to be Frank about that. And there are also things in his personal life that I really disdain and I write about that in my book. One simple idea, but I have to come back again and against the point that thank you. Grow rich has impacted my life for the better in ways that I cannot overemphasize, I cannot overstate of success. I’m thinking we’re rich, have been radical, pivotal, positive turning points in my life. I recommend them to everybody. Absolutely everybody. Well, anybody that reads, thinking, grow rich immediately afterward, go read chief definite aim because you encapture the key to thinking grow rich is the chief definite aim you really capture. It’s, it should be a red bow together. And that’s what I recommend. Anybody we got 10, we got a little, the time is running. So I want to go over some stuff because, um, so you uh, do a forward to Paul Selig’s book, uh, which is a wonderful challenge work I love so much and I wanted to get your impression on some, it’s tangentially related, uh, but it’s a part of what we’re exploring when we talk about the universe and uh, just some channeled works. And first of all, what is your impression of channeling and how do you evaluate it and bring it into your overall knowledge of what’s going on? I want to get your, your impressions of that. There’s so many crazy and unusual channeled works. We’ve got Abraham and Bashar and, and the law of one, which I want to talk in, but what is your, first of all, how do you evaluate those works in your impression of those? That’s a really good question and I think about that a lot. I think about that a lot. The term channel was introduced in its spiritual sense in the 1930s by the the medical psychic Edgar Casey and Casey’s work is referred to as channel of literature. Course in miracles is channeled literature material by Jane Roberts has channeled Paul Sellecks books or channel all is probably the most significant sort of the most literate, uh, person functioning within the field of channeling today. It seems to me that channeling is a form of ESP that gets personified, um, within the outlook of the individual shower to be some sort of a, a source of persona, a figure at your case. He referred to the source as the right wellspring of his information. Helen Shukman ultimately referred to Jesus as being wellspring of her information. Jane Roberts, the figure of Seth Paul makes reference to the guides, I think. I think it’s a form of ESP personify, right? I could be wrong about that. There could be these, these other transcendent beings that are communicating with the individual. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a tricky form of that physics because I think that ESP or transcendent communication is also something that comes and goes. It’s not like a light bulb that immediately flips on and off every time you switch or a water faucet. And so I think the individual also has to approach these teachings with his or her own discretion heightened because you could be experiencing things that are very true, very valid, very helpful. But there are maybe other times and other moments where you’re experiencing things that are not so, and that can be very disorienting to the individual. And that can be very frustrated because we want to consistency in all matters of the occult. In all matters of metaphysics. There is truth, but there is not necessarily consistency. And because something occurred and really truly did occur doesn’t necessarily mean that it will occur again or that it will occur in the same way. And it’s human nature to want consistency. But consistency is not always present. So if one drinks from these waters, I would just say do so with a great deal of personal discretion and agents. You can never sacrifice your own sense of outlook, judgment, evaluation, absolutely to this kind of um, certainty and consistency. Very well said. I mean, when somebody gets up to channel, what are they going to do? If nobody’s there, they’re going to just keep going. Right? They’re going to, okay, well I’ve got people, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, you know, I’m going to channel. Right. So they’re, they’re, you know, who knows. I’m not claiming anybody in particular, but there is some interesting information that comes from this channel work. Uh, you know, Paul Selig’s Rezai resonates with me when I, I feel his work. I can feel it viscerally. Uh, but going beyond that, you know, we have these works like the law of one that explore on a metaphysics on a doctoral level. Have you had a chance to read the law of one? No, I haven’t met her yet. All right, well that’s something I’d maybe next time we talk we can, we can, we can talk about that. Have you had access to any of Dolores Cannon’s work? No, I don’t read literature. The literature that I’ve mentioned is the literature that I’ve primarily been involved with along with some other lesser known names. There is a book, there’s a channeler who I believe is known as the angel of Prague, one of whose books has been published in French. Actually a couple of books perhaps published in France for one translated into English. I’ve read that and I find out material very, very valuable channeling. That’s not why they know and commercially that I care very deeply about the poet James marrow, uh, using to construct some of his own Epic poetry. And I suppose you could call that a form of channeling on that profoundly moving and meaningful. So there are some lesser known names that I’ve been very interested in. When I say lesser known, I mean people who might have a literary reputation or a reputation among the certain circle of folk, but who don’t necessarily live largely within the alternative spiritual culture. So some other ideas I’ve explored in my channel, just maybe, maybe you explore it with me. Have you, have you had any access to reality trans surfing? Have you read any of the by Vadim Zealand? The um, well he is taking a law of attraction kind of to another level. And he explores this idea of the pendulum, which is if people are thinking at the same thought frequency, it creates entity. It may not be conscious but it could be like an eager Gore on some level and you’re constantly creating these pendulums that there it’s like a cycle and they just pull your energy. So becoming aware of these pendulums and I wanted to bounce that off of you and see if you’d seen that referred to in other literature becoming aware of these pendulums and the way that you interact with them. Like I think comedians are like pendulum vampires. They figure out a way to pull the energy. When you meet people that go to group functions, it’s like they pull the, there’s, if we are creating our reality with our thoughts, there’s another level that when group of people who are have similar thoughts, they’re creating something else that is not game planned out. When we talk about this stuff, I wanted to get your impressions. You kind of explore a little bit of that as well and Oh for sure. I really resonate with that. I mean, I think that’s one of the ideas, one of the reasons why ideas go viral, so to speak. We think of an idea or a concept or a meme going viral as being something that belongs to the digital age. But of course this existed earlier. Like when post world war II, the commercial pilot, Kenneth Arnold, uh, experienced one of the first sightings of what came to be called flying saucers. And suddenly he’s in Washington state and then suddenly in Los Angeles and DC in New York, everywhere, you know, people are reporting these saucer sightings and you could say, well, it’s mass delusion. Oh well is it mass illusion? You FOS are being taken more seriously today than any other time in modern history, we have things on radar, we have things in cockpit footage, which one could theorize about, but effectively their UFO is why did we start to notice these things at a certain period in history? And of course there could be all kinds of materialist explanations for that, but we really don’t know. We really don’t know. And once sees this phenomena where something will get interjected into the culture and suddenly seems to pick up steam and it’s a bedded by digital culture, but it didn’t begin with digital culture. And the concept of the rigour is a very interesting one. Uh, I speak about this idea of their existing, these time collapses where events and phenomena from so-called past, present future to become mixed all into one. There were certain film directors who seem to have a gift for dropping an idea or a meme, and so their movies and suddenly it seems to have resonance, uh, years later that has spread to it. At the time, Roman Polanski is a particular director who’s very, very good at that. There’s this wonderful kind of coincidence of cultural events that can occur at once among people who are not visibly or, or, or, or consciously connected. And yet they’re, they’re all working around a certain idea. So I think that the collective thought and the virus, like nature of ideas is far more than just blind coincidence. There’s something there, whether it’s time collapse, whether it’s quantum selectivity, whether it’s some kind of mental causation. But we all think together in some way then clearly causative. And there are so many other examples that I could reference, but I think that’s a very real phenomenon. One more question that, um, if you don’t know about it, that’s great. Maybe I want to see if you found references to this idea. Uh, another thing they explore is, um, in a book called [inaudible] the priestess in reality trend surfing. And I keep on finding connections to it and Carlos Castaneda where he talks about the assemblage point, uh, is this idea that we create reality with an energy center that’s behind our head called the plat in yoga. It’s a Bindu. And that there’s th th th we can load up new realities, um, through this energy point. Have you ever heard a reference to anything like that? Okay, sure. You know, people talk about there being these different shoppers or energy centers or the pineal gland or areas of the body that, that coincide with metaphysics. Um, what I would say is that I think there’s probably a complexity of things going on. Uh, effects usually have a complexity of causes. And for example, people talk about the placebo response, which is so much deeper and so much more extraordinary than anything we’ve understood and some materialist people will say, well, gee, you know, it’s nothing other than the release of endorphins in the body. You know he’s being reducing enzymes or or or biochemicals and how do we know that? How do we know that? How do we know that’s not one of 12 things that are going on? For example, how do we know that the release of endorphins, the reduction of swelling, the reduction of hypertension are, are, are one of dozens of things that go on in the body that represents physically what the prayer response looks like in the body. How do we know that’s all that’s going on? You don’t want him to have blind spots of materialism and of our intellectual culture in general is that we defined one association. As soon as we’ve defined one association in a way that seems accurate, we burn the fleet, we smashed Galileo’s telescope. We say, you know, we’re done. We’re done. There’s nothing else to to explore here because we’ve identified this. This one correlate? Well, there could be hundreds of correlates. There could be dozens. I think one of the reasons why, for example, people find it difficult to get at the root of problematic behaviors is that these themselves have a complex of causes. There’s not just one thing going on. Positive behaviors also have a complex of causes. So I would say to people, don’t get too hung up with looking for that secret ingredient because the truth is there may be a complexity of ingredients and they also may be shifting it. There is, well, Mitch, thank you so much. I could talk to you forever. So many of your books and I really, really appreciate you spending the time with me and bouncing these ideas off of just to look up Mitch Horwitz on on Amazon. If you haven’t heard of him, where have you been? And go and find his books and read all of them. They’re fantastic and wonderful and they come from the heart and they’ve helped you. Your writing has changed my life. I’ve been able to apply it and I’ve been able to achieve goals that I never would ever achieve without reading your writing, by taking some of this, cutting the wheat from the chaff and saying, you know, this is what really works. And so I, I can only just say thank you so much for what you’ve done and keep on riding and I appreciate it and welcome to the reality revolution. Mitch, back at you. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. I wish you every good thing. I wish your listeners every good thing and I really enjoyed it. Thank you.